The Post Tribulation Rapture
THE POSTTRIBULATION RAPTURE
Scriptural evidence that the rapture will occur after the 70th week of Daniel. (from Geocities/Athens/6476)
Dan Dudley [email protected]
To explain my belief in the posttribulation rapture of the church, I have presented some contrasts between the pretribulation rapture and the posttribulation rapture postition. Later, more detailed reasons are given with several specific topics. On the first link (which is a continuation of this page), I give some answers to questions frequently asked of posttribs. Then, I present a detailed posttribulation rapture time line so that you can clearly understand how it all fits together. Recently, I added some questions to ask those who are posttrib but hold to the prewrath rapture position, and a discussion with two prewrathers who have responded to these questions. Next, you will find some answers to questions I have received about this page. These will be updated frequently and if you email a question to me, if it has not already been answered in this material and if it is an appropriate question, I may post it in this section. Two other topics unrelated to the Posttribulation Rapture are discussed; some arguments for belief in eternal security, and some notes about who the sons of God are in Genesis 6. Links to all of these topics are found at the end of this article. (The verse references are often easier to understand in the NASB and are presented so you can insert this article in your "ON LINE BIBLE" under edit note.) Contrasts The pretribulation rapture view requires the duplication of events that a posttribulation rapture position simplifies into one event. (The first of the two references given beside each event below is generally believed to occur before the 70th week of Daniel by pretribulationists. The second reference is generally regarded as occurring at a posttribulation time by both sides.) The same event is described in both passages, so pretribulationists must explain this duplication by saying that each of these events occur twice (a demonstration of the weakness of their position when contrasted with the posttribulation rapture position, which does not require such dubious duplications).
Event Pretribulation Rapture Posttribulation Rapture Bible Reference
Christ coming in the clouds twice once #1Thes 4.17 #Matt 24.30
Angelic involvement at His coming twice once #1Thes 4.16 #Matt 24.31
Resurrection of believers twice, with the second one called the "first resurrection" once #1Cor 15.52 #Rev 20.4-5
Last trumpet sounds twice once #1Cor 15.52 #Rev 11.15
Saints are rewarded. twice once #Rev 22.12 #Rev 11.18
Believers are told to expectantly await
His coming. twice once #Titus 2.13 #Matt 24.42
Christ's advent to innitiate the day
of the Lord is illustrated as being like
the coming of a thief. twice 1 once #1Thes 5.2 #Rev 16.15
The sun is darkened, the moon is
turned to blood (or darkened), the
stars fall from the sky, and the
powers of heaven are shaken
(wonders in the sky or stars lose
their brightness). three times 1, 2 once #Joel 2.30-31 #Joel 3.14-16 #Rev 6.12 #Matt 24.29
1 Most pretribs also believe the day of the Lord includes the entire 70th week of Daniel. 2 Before the 70th week, during the 70th week, and then after the 70th week
B. Specific topics
1. The day of the Lord
Because of the close connection in discussions of the rapture with the day of the Lord #1Thes 5.1, 2Thes 2.2 most pretribs believe the day of the Lord immediately follows the rapture of the church and thus believe it includes the entire 70th week of Daniel. ("The implication is clear that the great judgments of the day of the Lord extend over the entire great tribulation, even though all agree that they climax at its end, as God imposes a final judgment on the nations." John Walvoord, The Blessed Hope and the Tribulation page 115.)
Here I have listed a few reasons why posttribs place the day of the Lord after the end of the 70th week of Daniel.
a. #Joel 2.30-31, 3.9-12 describes certain celestial events that will precede the day of the Lord. #Matt 24.29 describes these same events as occurring "immediately after the tribulation...". #Rev 6.12-17 places these events at the sixth seal. This indicates that the day of the Lord begins after the 70th week of Daniel.
b. Malachi prophecies that Elijah will appear before the coming of the great and terrible day of the Lord. #Mal 4.5 After John the Baptist's death Jesus said, "Elijah is yet to come." #Matt 17.11 Most premillenarians hold that Elijah is one of the two witnesses mentioned in #Rev 11.1-13 Since these witnesses have their ministry during the great tribulation, the beginning of the day of the Lord would be placed at least in the middle of the 70th week of Daniel.
c. Paul describes two events that will occur before the day of the Lord in #2Thes 2.1-4 (1) the apostasy and (2) the man of lawlessness who takes his seat in the temple of God is revealed. This second event occurs at the start of the great tribulation so again the beginning of the day of the Lord would have to be no sooner than the middle of the 70th week of Daniel.
d. Most pretribs have a problem with placing the day of the Lord at the end of the 70th week because they see it as a time of judgment. "A study of numerous Old Testament references to the day of the Lord and "the day," as it is sometimes called, should make clear to anyone who respects the details of prophecy that the designation denotes an extensive time of divine judgment of the world." (Ibid., p. 111.) But #Rev 6.10-11 explains that martyred saints must wait for judgment on their persecutors until the number of their fellow servants who are to be killed is complete. Thus, the last martyred saint is killed very near the end, if not on the last day, of the 70th week. #Rev 13.5-7 says the beast will have authority to act for 42 months (generally agreed to be during the great tribulation) and among his actions will be making war with the saints and overcoming them. Therefore, God's judgment will not fall on the world until after the great tribulation and the seals, trumpets, and bowls that occur during the 70th week will not contain judgment from God.
e. #2Peter 3.9-10 indicates that the day of the Lord is being held back in order to allow time for all who will repent to do so. People are apparently still being given a valid chance to repent (although they do not) as late as the fourth and fifth bowl. Their lack of repentance provides evidence that God is justified in bringing His judgment on the earth in the bowls of wrath. #Rev 16.8-11
2. Christ's return and the believers resurrection
a. Jesus taught that His return would be at the end of the 70th week of Daniel. In Matthew 24 and 25, He taught His disciples about the signs preceding His second coming and then described His coming as including (1) coming in the clouds, (2) gathering the elect, (3) angelic participation, and (4) coming with the sound of a trumpet. This list is similar to what occurs at the rapture. Thus, the disciples would logically identify any future teaching about a rapture with the only coming they knew about unless a different time for the rapture was specifically given. However, no such specific differentiation is taught nor is it necessary.
b. The disciples knew of a resurrection of Jewish believers after the great tribulation. #Dan 12.2 Jesus reinforced this belief by teaching about a resurrection of believers as occurring "on the last day". #John 6.40 "...everyone who beholds the Son, and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." The church of course is among those who "believe in Him". When the disciples heard these words, they must have applied them to the only resurrection they knew about -the one after the great tribulation. #Dan 12.2 More evidence that the disciples of Jesus knew about this posttrib resurrection is gained from Martha's statement in #John 11.24 "I know he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." Thus, the burden of proof for a pretrib return of Christ and a pretrib resurrection of believers lies on the pretrib. A posttrib return and resurrection had already been established. Unless another return and resurrection, clearly distinguished from the posttrib event, is taught in the Bible, we have no choice but to believe that the rapture occurs at the end of the great tribulation. If pretrib is true, clear teaching had to come to change the minds of the apostles, teachers of the early church, about the timing of the resurrection of believers and the return of Christ. Appeal is often made at this point to #1Cor 15.51 but the new truth or mystery is that the living will be changed without dying. "Behold I show you a mystery. We shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed." Paul is stressing the fact that all believers will receive glorified bodies even if they are alive at Christ's coming. The Corinthians knew dead believers would receive glorified bodies because Christ and some Old Testament saints had been raised and glorified already. If the mystery was that we would be raised before the 70th week of Daniel, then this is still left a mystery. Paul didn't give a pretrib time for this event. In fact, he gave two posttrib time indications for this event. (See below on this passage.) Since the translation of the living is tied with the resurrection of believers and no pretrib time is mentioned, it would be natural for the Corinthians (and us) to place these events at the close of the great tribulation.
3. Specific scriptural indications that the rapture and resurrection of believers is posttrib.
There are clear time references associated with some passages on the return of Christ for the church. These time indications establish that event as being after the great tribulation and simultaneous with the second coming. In #2Thes 1.6-7 Paul commends the Thessalonians for their perseverance in tribulations and then he tells them when to expect relief and revenge. "For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well (When does relief come?) when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire...." In verse 7 he is saying God will relieve the church who is suffering persecution at the second coming! (Certainly verses 7-12 make it clear that this is at the end of the great tribulation). Then, in the immediate context of a second coming relief and return, Paul starts chapter two by tying the second coming with our gathering together to Christ at the rapture, 2Thes 2.1. Also notice that #2Thes 2.8 mentions a coming that is clearly at the end of the 70th week, adding more evidence that the coming in 2:1 must be interpreted as being at the end of the great tribulation (unless verse 1 is taken completely out of context).
Paul goes on to correct some false ideas by the Thessalonian believers. They seem to have thought the day of the Lord had come. (Not unreasonable considering all the persecutions and afflictions they had endured. They apparently knew tribulations would precede the day of the Lord.) They were excited, anxiously anticipating the soon return of Christ. Paul corrects this error showing them that two events will occur before the day of the Lord comes. (See above on the day of the Lord.) If pretrib is correct, Paul's description of events preceding the day of the Lord seems useless in correcting their error if the church will be in heaven when these events occur. Many pretribs believe the Thessalonians were distressed because they thought they had missed the rapture. This view is hard to accept since this information supposedly had come by letter from Paul who would also have missed the rapture!
Two other direct posttrib time references are given with the rapture and translation in #1Cor 15.51-54. First, in verse 51-52 Paul says, "we shall all be changed...at the last trumpet...." The word "last" requires (1) a series of trumpets, (2) that this is the final trumpet in that series, and (3) that no other trumpets follow. (If millennial trumpets do occur, they are sufficiently separated temporally so as to not be confused with this series of trumpets.) No other series of trumpets is mentioned and #Rev 10.7 says that with the events that occur at the seventh trumpet "...the mystery of God is finished...." From #Rev 11.15-18 "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever." and "the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to give their reward to Thy bond-servants the prophets and to the saints and to those who fear Thy name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth" describe events that also occur at the rapture. Thus, it is most reasonable to place the rapture and translation of the church at the time of the seventh trumpet.
Secondly, in #1Cor 15.54 Paul says, "But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable then will come about the saying that is written, 'death is swallowed up in victory'." This quote is taken from Isaiah 25.8, so, looking at the context #Isa 24.21-25.9 "He will swallow up death for all time," comes from a posttrib setting (certainly removing the reproach of Israel does not happen while Gentiles trample on Jerusalem for 1260 days). Thus, this Old Testament prophecy, which is clearly posttrib, is fulfilled at the same time that we get our glorified bodies-at the second coming.
Two other arguments to consider submitted by Stephen L. Rice.
Consider #Acts 1.6 When (generally) will Jesus "restore the Kingdom to Israel?" I think all premills will say, at the beginning of the Millennium. (Any who refer to the beginning of the Tribulation may be shown the various passages in the prophets which clearly say that the restored kingdom will never suffer persecution again, which rules out the Tribulation.) Now look at #Acts 3.19-21. Peter, under the anointing of the Holy Spirit, tells the men of Jerusalem that Jesus must remain in Heaven (literally, that the Heavens must continue to hold Him or be His dwelling) UNTIL the times of the restoration of EVERYTHING. Now, EVERYTHING is restored only in the millennium, so Jesus will not leave Heaven until it is time for the millennium to begin. He will not descend from Heaven with a shout of command (etc.) until then. Can the Tribulation occur after this, as a pre-trib Rapture would require? Or the Trumpets and Bowls? No; no bad stuff follows the millennium (and therefore, the Rapture), except for the judgement of the wicked.
#Rom 8.18-23 v. 18: Some kind of glory will later be revealed in us. v. 19: The Creation (everything, including this planet) awaits our "revelation." (In context, probably that of the glory in us.) v. 20: The Creation has been subjected temporarily to emptiness, but v. 21: it will be freed from corruption and share in the freedom of the glory of God's children. v. 22: (Reprise of 19) The Creation groans in anticipation of its deliverance. v. 23: We likewise eagerly await our full adoption as sons of God and the redemption of our bodies (presumably in the Rapture/First Resurrection). Conclusion: The reason the Creation is awaiting our bodily redemption (the Rapture) is that it will be redeemed from corruption at the same time (this is the gist of 19, 21-23). Now, if the Creation has been freed from corruption and emptiness (that is, not fulfilling its original design) at the Rapture, how can it be subjected to plagues thereafter? Could the Bowls be poured out on a redeemed Earth? Presumably not. So the redemption of the Earth must occur after the Trumpets and Bowls. Yet it also occurs at the same time as our own redemption in the Rapture. So the Rapture cannot precede the Trumpets and Bowls either.
This argument was submitted by Mike Betancourt.
#Titus 2.13 is a famous proof text for the deity of Christ. There the Granville Sharp Rule of Greek Grammar equates Christ as being one and the same as God the Father. (The KJV makes it seem like there may be two different people coming.) Unknown to many is that this grammatical phenomenon occurs **twice** in this verse--once at the end proving the deity of Christ and once at the beginning. The blessed hope (pretribbers call the rapture) and the glorious appearing (appearing in glory or revelation--the 2nd coming on a pretrib scenario) are said to be one and the same event not two distinct events separated by a period of at least seven years.
Pretribulational objections to postribulationalism.
a.Dispensationalism and posttribulationalism
(1) Since the church now occupies the predicted time of Israel’s dispersion, Deut. 30:1-4 so the church could occupy the time of Israel’s final tribulation. God is now (in the church age) working with Israel and bringing her back to the land, so God could deal with two groups ant the same time.
(2) Although the church is unique, it is still united with believers of fall ages in several ways. (a) We share a city, Rev. 21:12-14. (b). We are founded on Old Testament prophets, Eph. 2:19-22. (c). All believers are sons of Abraham, Rom. 4:11. (d). Old Testament believers are not made perfect without us, Heb.11:40. (e). Both Old Testament and tribulation martyrs along with the church will reign with Christ for 1000 years.
b. Imminence
1. Imminence is not implied in commands to watch because many commands to watch apply to the second coming which is not imminent.
2. If the early church believed in imminence as defined by pretribulationists today, they were mistaken because they had to wait for a. Peter’s binding and death at an old age, John 21:18, b. They had to wait for the gospel to be carried to the remotest part of the earth, Matt 24:14. They had to wait for the promise that the kingdom of God wouldn’t appear immediately, Luke 19:11. If the early church could not believe in imminence, neither can we.
c. Predictability
The time of Christ’s second coming is not predictable to the day or hour because Matt. 24:36 says it isn’t. “But of that day and hour no one knows.…”Also, if you look at the time line of future events at the end of this web page, you will see that the second coming does not occur on the last day of Daniel’s 70th week. The two witnesses lie dead in the streets for at least three and on half days after the 1260 days of their ministry (the second half of Daniel’s 70th week) is over, Rev. 11:3-12.
d. Wrath
Must the church be absent during the outpouring of divine wrath in the tribulation? No. Divine wrath is specifically targeted at unbelievers in many cases in Revelation, Rev. 10:19, 14:8, 16:2, 6, 9, and 11. In addition, God promises that no believer (either before or after a pretrib rapture) would suffer divine wrath for John 3:36 say, “He who has the Son has eternal life, but” (in contrast to those who have the Son) “he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but eh wrath of God abides on him.” General tribulation is promised the church now but this is not God’s wrath. So the tribulational character of the 70th week does no militate against the presence of the church.
e. The church in the book of Revelation
1. The term “church does not appear in tribulational passages with an earthly setting, but it also does not appear din passages with describe heavenly scenes during the tribulation. This is just an argument from silence.
2. Inferences (like the 24 elders) can be found for both sides. For example, John a member of the church, was persecuted “because of the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus…” Rev. 1:9, and tribulation saints are persecuted for exactly the same reason, Rev.12:17.
3. The reason for having the church present on earth during the tribulation is the same as why God keeps the church on earth today-to be the objects and witnesses of God’s saving grace to a world in peril of impending judgment.
4.. Those who “die in Christ” are raised at the rapture, I Thes. 4:16.Tribulation saints are said to “die in the Lord” Rev. 14:13. We cannot be resurrected before our tribulation brothers and sisters because we both have been promised a common time for resurrection, after the tribulation.
5. Where do all the believers who come out of the great tribulation from, “every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues” Rev. 7:9-17, come from if, just a few years before, every believer had been raptured? Revelation records not a single conversion. In fact, when discussing the people’s response to the first six trumpets and the seven bowls John says “they did not repent” Rev. 9:20-21, 16:9, 11. This is not to say there will be absolutely no conversions during the tribulation. If no one at all repented then the reason for the delay in the Lords return in II Peter 3:9-10 would be accomplished and the Day of the Lord would begin. Even today, after 2000 years of evangelistic work, the church has still not reached people from every tribe and tongue. Yet pretribulationists believe that in seven years, starting with no believers at all (except possibly the 144,000 Jewish bond-servants, who are never said to be evangelists, or the two witnesses of Rev. 11) the greatest evangelistic outreach in the history of mankind will occur. This will happen in spite of what many pretribulationists believe, that those who heard the Gospel prior to the rapture will not repent during the tribulation “…because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. And for this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they might believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.” II Thes. 2:10-12. A more reasonable explanation for this innumerable multitude is that they are the martyrs of the church whom the antichrist has murdered during the tribulation.
f. The Olivet Discourse relates to the church as well as Israel.
1.The context- God’s rejection of Israel, Matt. 23:37.
2. The apostles to whom it is spoken are representatives of the church, Rev. 21:14
3. The partial fulfillment of some of the prophecies already has happened in the church age, Matt. 24:4-14.
4. The you mentioned in “you will be hated by all nations because of My name” in Matt. 24:9 is certainly not Israel because, as a nation, Israel has rejected Jesus’s name, but it is the church.
I pray these explanations answer some of the objections raised against the posttribulational rapture point of view. I also would refer you the book, “The church and the Tribulation”, by Dr. Robert Gundry from which many of these explanations came.
Timeline for future events
A. 70th Week Begins
B. Seal 144,000
C. Trumpets Begin
D. Great Trib Begins
E. Great Trib Ends
F. Just Before Second Coming
G. Second Coming
H. Millennium Begins
I. Seven years into Millennium
J. Millennium Ends
K. Eternal State Begins
A. DANIEL'S 70TH WEEK BEGINS
1. Antichrist makes a covenant with "the many" for 7 years #Dan 9.27 2. Restrainer steps aside #2Thes 2.6-7 3. Begin seven seals
B. SEALING 144,000
144,000 sealed before trumpets begin (compare these two passages) #Rev 7.3, 8.6-11
C. TRUMPETS BEGIN TO SOUND
This event is placed before the Great Trib. because it is mentioned in Revelation after the discussion about the seals (which begin at the start of Daniel's 70th week and extend to the posttribulational second coming at the 7th seal) but before the second half of Daniel's 70th week, the Great Tribulation is mentioned in Rev 11. #Rev 8.6-12
D. BEGIN THE GREAT TRIBULATION
1. Middle of Daniel's 70th week. #Dan 9.27 2. Antichrist puts a stop to sacrifices and grain offerings. #Dan 9.27 3. Antichrist given authority to overcome saints; they can't buy or sell without the mark of the beast. #Rev 13.5-10, 16-17 4. Abomination of Desolation set up #Dan 9.27, Matt 24.15, 2Thes 2.4 5. Two witnesses given authority for 1260 days (possibly Moses and Elijah). #Mal 4.5, Matt 17.11, Rev 11:3 (John the Baptist was not this Elijah because when Jesus made His statement in Matt 17:11, John had already been killed.) 6. Nations start to trample on the holy city (Jerusalem) for 42 months (when the Antichrist sets up the Abomination of Desolation). #Rev 11.3 7. Believers in Israel nourished in the wilderness 1260 days #Matt 24.15-23, Rev 12.6-14
E. LAST DAY OF DANIEL'S 70TH WEEK
1. Two witnesses killed but resurrected in 3 1/2 days #Rev 11.7-11 2. End of authority of the Antichrist. #Rev 13.5-10 3. Immediately after the tribulation: a. the sun is darkened (or black) b. the moon turns to blood c. stars fall from the sky (wonders in the sky) d. great earthquake occurs (every mountain and island is moved) #Joel 2.30-32, 3.9-21 #Matt 24.29-30, Mark 13.27, Rev 6.12-17 4. seal #Rev 6.12-17 5. The time of God's wrath has come #Isa 2.12-21, Rev 6.12-17 6. Bowls of wrath begin (placed here tenatively because: a. wrath is said to have arrived at the sixth seal which is after Daniel's 70th week. #Rev 6.16-17 b. Rev 11:18 implies that God's wrath had recently arrived in the days of the seventh trumpet. #Rev 11:18 c. The first bowl leaves the impression that the mark of the beast has been available long enough for people to accept or reject it. #Rev 16:2 d. The third bowl is an answer to the question raised in the fifth seal. (Note the parallel concepts in the 5th seal and the 3rd bowl: (1) martyrs, (2) the alter, (3) judgment, (4) blood, (5) God as the Lord, (6) holy and (7) true, and (8) the wicked as deserving of vengence.) #Rev 6.9-10, 16.4-7 7. Last chance to repent is coming up #2Pet 3.9-10, Rev 16.8-11
F. JUST BEFORE THE RAPTURE/SECOND COMING
1. sixth trumpet (men did not repent, no more delay, 1/3 of mankind killed, 200 million horsemen) #Rev 9.13-21, 10.6 2. sixth bowl of wrath, prepare for Armageddon #Rev 16.12-14, 19.19 3. John eats bittersweet book, just before the seventh trumpet. Compare the sweet effect of the rapture/second coming on Christians (giving relief to you who are afflicted) with the bitter consequences of the second coming on unbelievers (dealing out retribution to those who do not know God etc). Placed here because it follows the announcement that the 7th trumpet is about to sound. #2Thes 1.7-10, Rev 10.7-10
G. THE RAPTURE/SECOND COMING
1. Begin the day of the Lord (which extends through to the eternal state) #Isa 2.12-21, 13.9-16, Joel 2.30-32, 3.9-21 #Zeph 1.14-18, 2Pet 3.10-12 2. Second coming (including rapture): believers meet Christ in the air and join His triumphant and victorious descent to earth, first reaping of #1Thes 4.17, Rev 14.14-16 includes: a. Christ coming b. in the clouds c. gathering elect from heaven and earth d. angelic participation e. a trumpet sound #Zeph 1.16, Matt 24.30-31, Mark 13.26-27, Acts 1.9-11, 1Cor 15.52, 1Thes 4.16-17, 2Thes 2:1, Rev 11.15-18, 14.14-16 3. Dead believers of all time resurrected (first resurrection) #Dan 12.1-2, Rev 20.54. Death is swallowed up in victory #Isa 25.8, 1Cor 15.54 5. The mystery of God is finished #Rev 10.7 6. The saints are rewarded #Rev 11.18 7. Christ begins to reign on earth #Ps 2.1-8, Rev 11.18 8. The Lamb stands on Mount Zion (in Jerusalem) with the 144,000 #Ps 2.6, Rev 14.1 9. Christ comes like a thief #Matt 24.43-44, 1Thes 5.2-4, 2Pet 3.10, Rev 16.15 10. The second reaping of Rev. 14 #Rev 14.17-20 11. seventh seal #Rev 8.1-5 12. seventh trumpet #1Cor 15.52,Rev 10.7, 11:15-19 13. seventh bowl #Rev 16.17-21 14., thunder, an earthquake, a great hailstorm #Rev 8.1-5, 11.19, 16.18-21 15. Armageddon #Joel 2.10-14, Zeph 3.8, 2Thes 2.8,11, 2Pet 3.10, Rev 16.16-21, 17.11-21, 19.11-21 16. Babylon is fallen #Rev 14.8, 18.2 17. End of the Abomination of Desolation #Dan 9.27, 12.11, Zeph 1.8-9 18. All Israel turns to God #Joel 2.32, Zech 3.8-9, 12.3 #Zech 12.9-14 #Zech 13.1-9, Mal 3.1-6, Rom 11.26-27 (144,000 may be the first fruits of this harvest of Jewish souls) #Rev 14.4 19. Marriage supper of the Lamb #Luke 22.18, Rev 19.7, 21.9-14 20. Day of Atonement #Zech 12.10-11
H. BEGIN MILLENNIUM
1. Begin millennium (apparently 1335 days after the middle of Daniel's 70th week)
#Dan 12.12
2. Satan bound for 1000 years
#Rev 20.1-3
3. Antichrist and False Prophet cast into the lake of fire
#Rev 20.11-15
I. SEVEN YEARS INTO MILLENNIUM
Seven years into the millennium weapons of Ezekiel finish burning
#Ezek 39.9
J. END OF MILLENNIUM
1. Satan released 2. Battle with Gog and Magog 3. Devil thrown into the lake of fire 4. Great White Throne judgment 5. Judgment of unrighteous dead #Rev 20.7-15 6. Judgment of the nations. (Placed here because the evil men are thrown into the eternal fire. #Matt 25.31-46, Rev 20.7-14
K. ETERNAL STATE BEGINS
New heaven, new earth. #Rev 21
I have a few questions for the prewrath rapture position from a post tribulational rapture position.
1. Although the prewrath position answers many questions that the pretrib view does not, it still suffers the burden of explaining a few dubious duplications that the posttrib rapture unifies as one event. I believe the chart below correctly portrays the pre wrath position as compared to the posttrib position.
Unnecessary duplication of events:
a. The Prewrath position should have three times believers are resurrected. The first resurrection occurs after the 6th seal at the prewrath rapture, then there should be one at the last (7th) trumpet according to 1Cor. 15.52, Rev 11.15, and then a resurrection after the 70th week of Daniel is over, Dan. 12:1-2, Rev. 20:4-5 and this final resurrection is called the “first resurrection”!?
Since the posttrib position sees the seals, trumpets and bowls as overlapping (not parallel) and all ending together at the 7th seal, trumpet and bowl, all these resurrections happen after the end of the 70th week of Daniel-just one resurrection.
b. The Prewrath position has two times Christ’s advent is illustrated as being like the coming of a thief. At the prewrath (somewhere after the middle of the tribulation rapture, 1Thes 5.2, and again in Rev 16.15 where it is clear that Christ has not come yet like a thief at the time of the 6th bowl of wrath. They will say that this is a parenthesis in the 6th bowl (as pretribs do), and that the time period spoken of refers back to the prewrath rapture, but there is no evidence for this in the context of the 6th bowl. It just doesn’t fit their narrative (as with the pretrib position).
2. Regarding the second half of Daniel’s 70th week:
a. Are the number of days the antichrist is given authority to act cut short? Van Kampen in THE SIGN page 337 says the antichrist is “rendered useless” at the beginning of the Day of the Lord. But the Lord had given him 42 months to act, Rev 13.5.
b. Won’t the two witnesses will prophesy for “1260 days”, Rev 11.3 Is this just an idle promise, (made in approximately 95 A. D., ruffly 65 years after the statement from Jesus that the days will be cut short)?
c. Hasn’t the outer court been given to the nations to tread under foot for 42 months, Rev 11.2? Is this 42 month period cut short, Matt. 24:22?
d. It is not reasonable that two individuals, diametrically opposed to each other, both exercise authority at the same time. The antichrist would be exercising his authority freely during the day of the Lord. The last part of Daniel’s 70th week (which prewrathers see as the day of the Lord) appears to be a continuation of the day of the antichrist which started in the middle of the 70th week since he is exercising his God given authority to overcome saints, etc. If it is the day of the Lord, God would be exercising His authority, not refraining from exercising His authority and permitting the antichrist to exercise his.
If prewrath claimed that the above 3 1/2 years occurred during the first half of Daniel’s 70th week, they would avoid these problems. But claiming that these periods of time occur in the second half of Daniel’s 70th week causes the prewrath position a problem explaining the fact that God promises the antichrist authority for 42 months and then decides that, “for the sake of the elect those days must be shortened” and reduces the number of days granted for certain things to occur. Prewrath teaches that God severely restricts or “renders useless” (THE SIGN page 337) the antichrist thus revoking the authority He had just granted.
Another explanation is needed for “cut short”, Matt 24.22.
Checking the Greek:
2856 koloboo {kol-ob-o’-o}
from a derivative of the base of 2849; TDNT – 3:823,452; v
AV – shorten 4; 4
1) to mutilate
2) in NT: to shorten, abridge, curtail
The first definition is to mutilate (ie to cut off). So if those days had been allowed to go on indefinitely no flesh would survive but they will be cut off, not permitted to go on indefinitely. But they will go on as long as God had said they would.
3. Why at the 6th bowl of wrath does God say, “I am coming like a thief”?
Rev 16.15 According to the prewrath view He already had come like a thief to start the day of the Lord and to rescue all believers from His wrath? (I don’t believe Rev. 16:15 is a parenthesis in the middle of the events of the 6th bowl that jumps back to the church before the 7th seal rapture. I do believe the rapture is at the 7th seal but that the 7th seal is after the 6th bowl.) For evidence that 7 is the Biblical number of completion see Gen 1. For evidence that the 7th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th bowl all are simultaneous note the flashes of lightening, and sounds and peals of thunder, and the great earthquake that follows each of the seven seals, trumpets and bowls; 7th seal Rev 8.1-5 7th trumpet; 1Cor 15.52 Rev 10.7, 11.15-19 7th bowl Rev 16.17-18 These repeated series of events remind me of the sun being darkened, the moon being darkened or turned to blood, the stars falling from the sky, and the powers of heaven being shaken in the 6th seal after the tribulation. The repetition of both of these series of events indicates that the same point in time has been reached.
4. If NO ONE is saved after the prewrath rapture, why does the 6th bowl imply that there are those on earth who are blessed, staying awake and keeping their garments, Rev 16.15? And why do the bowls specifically target the wicked; Rev 16.2 “those who had the mark of the beast”, Rev 16.6“those who poured out the blood of saints”, Rev. 16.9 “they blasphemed God” thus implying that those who do not have the mark of the beast or those who did not pour out the blood of saints will not be affected?
On the other hand, If SOME ARE saved after the prewrath rapture, will they suffer the wrath of God or be protected from it? If they suffer it, prewrath must explain why John 3.36 doesn’t apply to them? If they don’t suffer it but are protected by God on earth as He protected Noah and Lot, then the need for a prewrath rapture has vanished because God is protecting His own on earth through the time of the outpouring of His wrath anyway. He might as well protect the entire church. Those saved after a prewrath rapture of believers still have the same promises of deliverance from the wrath of God that the church does. Or does the prewrath position believe as pretribs, that those saved after the rapture are not part of the church but part of Israel, or some hybrid group?
5. The 5th seal Rev 6.10-11 tells us that God will REFRAIN from JUDGING and avenging the blood of saints until the LAST martyr is killed. This may be the killing of the two witnesses at the end of the antichrist’s authority to kill saints, but could be any other martyr. In either case, this verse implies that God’s judging, the essence of the day of the Lord, 2Pet 3.7-10 will be WITHHELD until the end of both: 1. the authority of the antichrist to act and kill saints, and 2. the time the two witnesses have to witness is over. Thus God’s judgment will not come until after the 70th week of Daniel is over, and the antichrist’s authority is over, and the time given to the two witnesses to witness has been used up.
6. From Heb. 11.40 we learn that OT saints could not be made perfect without us. The posttrib rapture position indicates that both OT saints and we the church are made perfect at the same time-at the posttrib rapture. The prewrath position has OT saints WAITING to be resurrected until the first day of the Millennium (THE SIGN, pg. 297). If they could not be made perfect without us, how can we be made perfect without them? It seems consistent with the revealed character of God that we should not be made perfect without them if they cannot be made perfect without us.
7. Rom 8.18-23 describes creation anxiously longing for the revealing of the sons of God (the rapture). Why? Because (v 21) creation will be set free from its slavery to corruption when the sons of God are revealed. But according to prewrath, after the revealing of the sons of God, creation is not relieved, but instead, hail, fire and blood are thrown to earth, a third of the earth is burnt up, a third of the trees are burnt and all the green grass is burnt up, all in the 1st trumpet, it does not get any better for creation as we get into the 2nd trumpet or the rest of the bowls. I think you get the point. Creation would not be eagerly awaiting the revelation of the sons of God if, just after that revelation, creation is subject to the seven trumpets and seven bowls. It would eagerly await the return of Christ. But according to posttrib, it would eagerly wait for the revelation of the sons of God because that is when Christ returns to set up His kingdom. Prewrath (as well as pretribs) would have to explain why creation is said to be relieved at a time when creation will experience the worst plagues ever. Posttrib offers a better explanation; that at the revelation of the sons of God, the earth will also be relieved from the plagues of Revelation and God will “destroy those who destroy the earth.” Rev 11.18
8. According to Isa. 2.11, 17 “the Lord alone will be exalted in that day” (from the context- the day of the Lord). Rev. 13:4-8 tells us that the antichrist will be worshiped by “all who dwell on the earth” for 42 month (the second half of the tribulation) which prewrathers have at least in part as the day of the Lord. So the prewrath position has the antichrist being worshiped during a time frame that the Lord ALONE will be exalted. God won’t share any part of His day with the antichrist, so the day of the Lord cannot start until the 70th week of Daniel is over.
9. If the Day of the Lord starts just after the 6th seal and the seals, trumpets and bowls are consecutive, then why are there opportunities given to repent as late as the 5th bowl, since the Day of the Lord is being delayed until all who will repent do repent? 2 Peter 3:9-10 “The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.” This tells me that the Day of the Lord is being held back until all who will repent have repented. But legitimate opportunities for repentance are available but rejected even as late as the 4th bowl, Rev. 16:8, and 5th bowl, Rev. 16:11. So the day of the Lord will not begin until after at least the 5th bowl (which is consistent with the promise in the 6th bowl, Rev. 16:15 that He is coming like a thief, also given in 2 Peter 3:10).
10. In Acts 1:11 The “two men” tell the disciples that, when Jesus returns He will come in “just the same way as you have seen Him go into heaven”. He arose from the earth and went straight up to heaven. He did not linger in the clouds for several years. So when He returns, He will descend from heaven directly to earth, not linger in the clouds for several years.
In addition Dr. Robert Young added the following argument:
In Acts the Word says that Jesus will remain in heaven until the final restoration of all things. The restoration of all things is obviously in the Millennium and not the Tribulation. Christ will return at the DOL after the Tribulation. This has been the belief of the early church and with clear and direct scripturaI I humbly contend that it should be ours.
Could Islam be the religion of the antichrist?
In Luke 7:18-23 the disciples of John reported to him about all these things that Jesus was doing. 19 Summoning two of his disciples, John sent them to the Lord, saying, “Are You the Expected One, or do we look for someone else?” 20 When the men came to Him, they said, “John the Baptist has sent us to You, to ask, ‘Are You the Expected One, or do we look for someone else?’” 21 At that very time He cured many people of diseases and afflictions and evil spirits; and He gave sight to many who were blind. 22 And He answered and said to them, “Go and report to John what you have seen and heard: the blind receive sight, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, the poor have the gospel preached to them. 23 Blessed is he who does not take offense at Me.”
Jesus gave the disciples six evidences to tell John that should convince him that Jesus was the One. If the evidence being reported matched what the Bible had predicted, John should rest assured that Jesus was the One.
Applying this principle to the question, “Could Islam be the religion of the antichrist?” I will refer you to three times as many Scripture passages which, while all may not apply only to Islam, when considered together, I believe they make Islam the most likely religion of the coming antichrist.
1. Rev. 20:4 The antichrist will use beheading as a primary means of enforcing his will. Obviously Islam is the only world religion that has historically and is currently doing this.
2. The spirit of antichrist is to deny that Jesus is the Son of God, I John 2:22-23, 4:3, 2 John 1:7
3. The spirit of the antichrist is to deny that God is the Father, I John 2:22-23, 4:3, 2 John 1:7
4. The spirit of the antichrist is to deny that God has come in the flesh. I John 4:3, 2 John 1:7 In Islam saying that God had a Son or that God is at all to be compared with man (that God is a father, or that God became a man in Christ) is the worst sin you could possibly commit (called shirk).
5. John 16:3 “But an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God.” As the Islamists kill people they cry “Allahu akbar” meaning “God is great”. Certainly they think they are doing service to God as they kill people.
6. Dan. 2:40-43, 7:23 the fourth kingdom is said to be “as strong as iron, which breaks and smashes everything, so it will crush and break all the others (the other 3 kingdoms), or “the fourth kingdom …shall be different from all the kingdoms, and it shall devour the whole earth, and trample it down, and break it to pieces”, Dan. 7:23. This description fits Islam better than Rome. (Rome did not crush, trample and destroy the previous empires completely. They actually were a constructive force building roads (“all roads lead to Rome” and creating peace “Pax Romana “). But the Islamic Caliphate did fully, absolutely, and completely conquered all the lands of the other empires. It also crushed the previous three empires culturally and religiously. The Ottoman empire changed the language or alphabet to Arabic, destroyed the culture of the previous 3 empires (recall them destroying the 3000 year old artifacts in the Mosul museum 2/28/15) and replaced the religion of the previous 3 empires, whereas Rome continued to permit Jews to worship freely as long as they did not revolt and Christianity prospered under Rome but has struggled for survival under Islam.
7. Dan. 2:32-33 The fourth kingdom is said to be mixed, part iron, part clay. This fits well because in Islam we see the mixture of Shia and Sunni being an uncomfortable and unstable mixture.
8. Dan 2:41 the three times “mixed” in the Aramaic text is actually the word “Arab”. Of course Islam came out of the Arab population.
9. Those who fall will “fall by the sword, by flame, by captivity and by plunder,” Dan. 11:33. This is just what we see in the news: Cutting peoples’ throats with swords, burning the Jordanian pilot and 45 others burned alive “ISIS burned 45 people to death in seized Iraqi town of al-Baghdadi,” women and children being taken captive and their goods being plundered.
10. The antichrist (little horn) will not honor the God of his fathers (the God of Abraham, Ishmael, Esau-the true God.) Dan. 11:37-38.
11. He will have no regard for the desire of women, Dan. 11:37. What religion so disregards the desires of women: It takes four female witnesses to equal one male witness, they have multiple wives, their women get no education, they cannot leave the house without a male relative escort, cannot go shopping without a male, can’t even show their faces or look at people in the eyes, they teach their children to want to become suicide bombers for Allah, etc. (Some say the desire of women is to bear the Messiah. Since they deny the incarnation that interpretation would also fit.)
12. He will not honor any (other) god”, Dan. 11:37. (other than the god of force, see Dan. 11:38). This is just what Islam’s Shahada states: There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his prophet.
13. He will honor a god of force, Dan. 11:38. Throughout Islam’s history they have forced their beliefs on others. Talk about cramming your religion down someone’s throat? Either you believe or they slit your throat. That has been the history of Islam-to force people to believe, and then if you change your mind they kill you.
14. Dan. 11:38-39 also shows that it is a religion. He does honor one god, and requires others to worship it him. (See also Rev. 13:8, 15.)
15. Dan. 11:38-39, He honors a god of force. He will be monotheistic. (There are only three monotheistic religions in the world today, Christianity, Judaism and Islam.)
16. He will take action against the strongest of fortresses, Dan. 11:24, 39. Remember 9/11 and other attacks against our country and other major world military powers: Britain, France, and Germany.
17. He will seek to make changes in times, Dan. 7:25. When Islam is in control of a country they change from our calendar based on Christ to a calendar based on Mohammed.
18. He will seek to make changes in laws, Dan. 7:25. They change from our laws based on the Bible to Sharia law.
19. Rev. 17:10-11 describes 7 mountains or 7 kings representing 7 kingdoms (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome (“one now is”), and the Ottoman Empire). The seventh kingdom is seemingly destroyed and then returns. The Ottoman (Islamic) empire started in about 1299 A. D. and existed until 1924. Both ISIS and Iran are trying to revive this Islamic empire or Caliphate.
20. Daniel 9:26 “The people of the Prince who is to come will destroy the city and sanctuary” Josephus records that the Romans hired provincials to fight for them and the Arab provincials actually did more destruction to Jerusalem in 70 A.D. than the Romans wanted done. So the people of the prince who is to come are Arabs, not Romans. (Flavious Josephus, The Complete works of Josephus, The Wars of the Jews bk3 chpt1, par. 3) also Taticus, the History, Eew Ed.ed., bk5.1 ed. Moses hadas; trans. Alfred Church and William Broadribb (New York [dd1] : Modern Library, 2003)
21. All of the countries specifically marked for judgment in the Day of the Lord, are currently Muslims countries. Numb. 24:14, 17-20, Isa. 25:8-11, Obed. 1:8,-10, 15, 17-20, Ez. 25:12-17, 30:1-5, Zeph. 2:3-5, 12-13, The return of Israeli captives is a clue that this is at the end of the tribulation. Luke 21:20-24, Ez. 38:25, Joel 2:32-3:1-4, Zeph. 2:8-9, 12-13, Is.34:5-9, 63:1-4 comp. with Rev. 19.
Some objections to the Islamic antichrist idea.
1. Over the centuries, many have postulated other people as the antichrist such as Nero, Hitler, Obama, etc, and this “crying wolf” so often has turned others off to the idea of even discussing the identity or religion of the antichrist. But I don’t think any previously proposed candidate comes close to fulfilling the Scriptural descriptions above as does an Islamic individual.
2. If the antichrist does not come out of Islam, but comes from some new 10 nation revived Roman empire, then the (presently Islamic) nations that are said to come against Israel during the tribulation (# 21 above) must end up renouncing Islam (which they have followed for 1300 years) and joining some new and as yet undisclosed religion that fits the prophecies mentioned above. This seems highly unlikely in light of recent events which have seen the Islamic faith being revived, not destroyed.
3. Why study this at all? Because God wants us to be among those who have insight, Dan 11:33-34 “Those who have insight among the people will give understanding to the many…. Dan 12:10 “Many will be purged, purified and refined… those who have insight will understand.” Or like the sons of Isaachar, in 1 Chronicles 12:32 “Of the sons of Issachar, men who understood the times, with knowledge of what Israel should do… .“
4. What difference does it make. We cannot change it for it is God’s plan? Ezekiel 33:6 “But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet and the people are not warned, and a sword comes and takes a person from them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require from the watchman’s hand.” Prov. 27:12 “A prudent man foresees evil and hides himself.”
5. How could 2000 years of Christian teaching on this idea (that the antichrist comes out of Rome) be wrong? Possibly because the concept was concealed by God until the “end of time”. Dan 12:4, But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.” Dan 12:9-10 He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until time.”
Dan Dudley, 269-325-1371. See the books by Joel Richardson, “The Islamic Antichrist” and “The Mideast Beast”.
Scriptural evidence that the rapture will occur after the 70th week of Daniel. (from Geocities/Athens/6476)
Dan Dudley [email protected]
To explain my belief in the posttribulation rapture of the church, I have presented some contrasts between the pretribulation rapture and the posttribulation rapture postition. Later, more detailed reasons are given with several specific topics. On the first link (which is a continuation of this page), I give some answers to questions frequently asked of posttribs. Then, I present a detailed posttribulation rapture time line so that you can clearly understand how it all fits together. Recently, I added some questions to ask those who are posttrib but hold to the prewrath rapture position, and a discussion with two prewrathers who have responded to these questions. Next, you will find some answers to questions I have received about this page. These will be updated frequently and if you email a question to me, if it has not already been answered in this material and if it is an appropriate question, I may post it in this section. Two other topics unrelated to the Posttribulation Rapture are discussed; some arguments for belief in eternal security, and some notes about who the sons of God are in Genesis 6. Links to all of these topics are found at the end of this article. (The verse references are often easier to understand in the NASB and are presented so you can insert this article in your "ON LINE BIBLE" under edit note.) Contrasts The pretribulation rapture view requires the duplication of events that a posttribulation rapture position simplifies into one event. (The first of the two references given beside each event below is generally believed to occur before the 70th week of Daniel by pretribulationists. The second reference is generally regarded as occurring at a posttribulation time by both sides.) The same event is described in both passages, so pretribulationists must explain this duplication by saying that each of these events occur twice (a demonstration of the weakness of their position when contrasted with the posttribulation rapture position, which does not require such dubious duplications).
Event Pretribulation Rapture Posttribulation Rapture Bible Reference
Christ coming in the clouds twice once #1Thes 4.17 #Matt 24.30
Angelic involvement at His coming twice once #1Thes 4.16 #Matt 24.31
Resurrection of believers twice, with the second one called the "first resurrection" once #1Cor 15.52 #Rev 20.4-5
Last trumpet sounds twice once #1Cor 15.52 #Rev 11.15
Saints are rewarded. twice once #Rev 22.12 #Rev 11.18
Believers are told to expectantly await
His coming. twice once #Titus 2.13 #Matt 24.42
Christ's advent to innitiate the day
of the Lord is illustrated as being like
the coming of a thief. twice 1 once #1Thes 5.2 #Rev 16.15
The sun is darkened, the moon is
turned to blood (or darkened), the
stars fall from the sky, and the
powers of heaven are shaken
(wonders in the sky or stars lose
their brightness). three times 1, 2 once #Joel 2.30-31 #Joel 3.14-16 #Rev 6.12 #Matt 24.29
1 Most pretribs also believe the day of the Lord includes the entire 70th week of Daniel. 2 Before the 70th week, during the 70th week, and then after the 70th week
B. Specific topics
1. The day of the Lord
Because of the close connection in discussions of the rapture with the day of the Lord #1Thes 5.1, 2Thes 2.2 most pretribs believe the day of the Lord immediately follows the rapture of the church and thus believe it includes the entire 70th week of Daniel. ("The implication is clear that the great judgments of the day of the Lord extend over the entire great tribulation, even though all agree that they climax at its end, as God imposes a final judgment on the nations." John Walvoord, The Blessed Hope and the Tribulation page 115.)
Here I have listed a few reasons why posttribs place the day of the Lord after the end of the 70th week of Daniel.
a. #Joel 2.30-31, 3.9-12 describes certain celestial events that will precede the day of the Lord. #Matt 24.29 describes these same events as occurring "immediately after the tribulation...". #Rev 6.12-17 places these events at the sixth seal. This indicates that the day of the Lord begins after the 70th week of Daniel.
b. Malachi prophecies that Elijah will appear before the coming of the great and terrible day of the Lord. #Mal 4.5 After John the Baptist's death Jesus said, "Elijah is yet to come." #Matt 17.11 Most premillenarians hold that Elijah is one of the two witnesses mentioned in #Rev 11.1-13 Since these witnesses have their ministry during the great tribulation, the beginning of the day of the Lord would be placed at least in the middle of the 70th week of Daniel.
c. Paul describes two events that will occur before the day of the Lord in #2Thes 2.1-4 (1) the apostasy and (2) the man of lawlessness who takes his seat in the temple of God is revealed. This second event occurs at the start of the great tribulation so again the beginning of the day of the Lord would have to be no sooner than the middle of the 70th week of Daniel.
d. Most pretribs have a problem with placing the day of the Lord at the end of the 70th week because they see it as a time of judgment. "A study of numerous Old Testament references to the day of the Lord and "the day," as it is sometimes called, should make clear to anyone who respects the details of prophecy that the designation denotes an extensive time of divine judgment of the world." (Ibid., p. 111.) But #Rev 6.10-11 explains that martyred saints must wait for judgment on their persecutors until the number of their fellow servants who are to be killed is complete. Thus, the last martyred saint is killed very near the end, if not on the last day, of the 70th week. #Rev 13.5-7 says the beast will have authority to act for 42 months (generally agreed to be during the great tribulation) and among his actions will be making war with the saints and overcoming them. Therefore, God's judgment will not fall on the world until after the great tribulation and the seals, trumpets, and bowls that occur during the 70th week will not contain judgment from God.
e. #2Peter 3.9-10 indicates that the day of the Lord is being held back in order to allow time for all who will repent to do so. People are apparently still being given a valid chance to repent (although they do not) as late as the fourth and fifth bowl. Their lack of repentance provides evidence that God is justified in bringing His judgment on the earth in the bowls of wrath. #Rev 16.8-11
2. Christ's return and the believers resurrection
a. Jesus taught that His return would be at the end of the 70th week of Daniel. In Matthew 24 and 25, He taught His disciples about the signs preceding His second coming and then described His coming as including (1) coming in the clouds, (2) gathering the elect, (3) angelic participation, and (4) coming with the sound of a trumpet. This list is similar to what occurs at the rapture. Thus, the disciples would logically identify any future teaching about a rapture with the only coming they knew about unless a different time for the rapture was specifically given. However, no such specific differentiation is taught nor is it necessary.
b. The disciples knew of a resurrection of Jewish believers after the great tribulation. #Dan 12.2 Jesus reinforced this belief by teaching about a resurrection of believers as occurring "on the last day". #John 6.40 "...everyone who beholds the Son, and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." The church of course is among those who "believe in Him". When the disciples heard these words, they must have applied them to the only resurrection they knew about -the one after the great tribulation. #Dan 12.2 More evidence that the disciples of Jesus knew about this posttrib resurrection is gained from Martha's statement in #John 11.24 "I know he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." Thus, the burden of proof for a pretrib return of Christ and a pretrib resurrection of believers lies on the pretrib. A posttrib return and resurrection had already been established. Unless another return and resurrection, clearly distinguished from the posttrib event, is taught in the Bible, we have no choice but to believe that the rapture occurs at the end of the great tribulation. If pretrib is true, clear teaching had to come to change the minds of the apostles, teachers of the early church, about the timing of the resurrection of believers and the return of Christ. Appeal is often made at this point to #1Cor 15.51 but the new truth or mystery is that the living will be changed without dying. "Behold I show you a mystery. We shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed." Paul is stressing the fact that all believers will receive glorified bodies even if they are alive at Christ's coming. The Corinthians knew dead believers would receive glorified bodies because Christ and some Old Testament saints had been raised and glorified already. If the mystery was that we would be raised before the 70th week of Daniel, then this is still left a mystery. Paul didn't give a pretrib time for this event. In fact, he gave two posttrib time indications for this event. (See below on this passage.) Since the translation of the living is tied with the resurrection of believers and no pretrib time is mentioned, it would be natural for the Corinthians (and us) to place these events at the close of the great tribulation.
3. Specific scriptural indications that the rapture and resurrection of believers is posttrib.
There are clear time references associated with some passages on the return of Christ for the church. These time indications establish that event as being after the great tribulation and simultaneous with the second coming. In #2Thes 1.6-7 Paul commends the Thessalonians for their perseverance in tribulations and then he tells them when to expect relief and revenge. "For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well (When does relief come?) when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire...." In verse 7 he is saying God will relieve the church who is suffering persecution at the second coming! (Certainly verses 7-12 make it clear that this is at the end of the great tribulation). Then, in the immediate context of a second coming relief and return, Paul starts chapter two by tying the second coming with our gathering together to Christ at the rapture, 2Thes 2.1. Also notice that #2Thes 2.8 mentions a coming that is clearly at the end of the 70th week, adding more evidence that the coming in 2:1 must be interpreted as being at the end of the great tribulation (unless verse 1 is taken completely out of context).
Paul goes on to correct some false ideas by the Thessalonian believers. They seem to have thought the day of the Lord had come. (Not unreasonable considering all the persecutions and afflictions they had endured. They apparently knew tribulations would precede the day of the Lord.) They were excited, anxiously anticipating the soon return of Christ. Paul corrects this error showing them that two events will occur before the day of the Lord comes. (See above on the day of the Lord.) If pretrib is correct, Paul's description of events preceding the day of the Lord seems useless in correcting their error if the church will be in heaven when these events occur. Many pretribs believe the Thessalonians were distressed because they thought they had missed the rapture. This view is hard to accept since this information supposedly had come by letter from Paul who would also have missed the rapture!
Two other direct posttrib time references are given with the rapture and translation in #1Cor 15.51-54. First, in verse 51-52 Paul says, "we shall all be changed...at the last trumpet...." The word "last" requires (1) a series of trumpets, (2) that this is the final trumpet in that series, and (3) that no other trumpets follow. (If millennial trumpets do occur, they are sufficiently separated temporally so as to not be confused with this series of trumpets.) No other series of trumpets is mentioned and #Rev 10.7 says that with the events that occur at the seventh trumpet "...the mystery of God is finished...." From #Rev 11.15-18 "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever." and "the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to give their reward to Thy bond-servants the prophets and to the saints and to those who fear Thy name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth" describe events that also occur at the rapture. Thus, it is most reasonable to place the rapture and translation of the church at the time of the seventh trumpet.
Secondly, in #1Cor 15.54 Paul says, "But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable then will come about the saying that is written, 'death is swallowed up in victory'." This quote is taken from Isaiah 25.8, so, looking at the context #Isa 24.21-25.9 "He will swallow up death for all time," comes from a posttrib setting (certainly removing the reproach of Israel does not happen while Gentiles trample on Jerusalem for 1260 days). Thus, this Old Testament prophecy, which is clearly posttrib, is fulfilled at the same time that we get our glorified bodies-at the second coming.
Two other arguments to consider submitted by Stephen L. Rice.
Consider #Acts 1.6 When (generally) will Jesus "restore the Kingdom to Israel?" I think all premills will say, at the beginning of the Millennium. (Any who refer to the beginning of the Tribulation may be shown the various passages in the prophets which clearly say that the restored kingdom will never suffer persecution again, which rules out the Tribulation.) Now look at #Acts 3.19-21. Peter, under the anointing of the Holy Spirit, tells the men of Jerusalem that Jesus must remain in Heaven (literally, that the Heavens must continue to hold Him or be His dwelling) UNTIL the times of the restoration of EVERYTHING. Now, EVERYTHING is restored only in the millennium, so Jesus will not leave Heaven until it is time for the millennium to begin. He will not descend from Heaven with a shout of command (etc.) until then. Can the Tribulation occur after this, as a pre-trib Rapture would require? Or the Trumpets and Bowls? No; no bad stuff follows the millennium (and therefore, the Rapture), except for the judgement of the wicked.
#Rom 8.18-23 v. 18: Some kind of glory will later be revealed in us. v. 19: The Creation (everything, including this planet) awaits our "revelation." (In context, probably that of the glory in us.) v. 20: The Creation has been subjected temporarily to emptiness, but v. 21: it will be freed from corruption and share in the freedom of the glory of God's children. v. 22: (Reprise of 19) The Creation groans in anticipation of its deliverance. v. 23: We likewise eagerly await our full adoption as sons of God and the redemption of our bodies (presumably in the Rapture/First Resurrection). Conclusion: The reason the Creation is awaiting our bodily redemption (the Rapture) is that it will be redeemed from corruption at the same time (this is the gist of 19, 21-23). Now, if the Creation has been freed from corruption and emptiness (that is, not fulfilling its original design) at the Rapture, how can it be subjected to plagues thereafter? Could the Bowls be poured out on a redeemed Earth? Presumably not. So the redemption of the Earth must occur after the Trumpets and Bowls. Yet it also occurs at the same time as our own redemption in the Rapture. So the Rapture cannot precede the Trumpets and Bowls either.
This argument was submitted by Mike Betancourt.
#Titus 2.13 is a famous proof text for the deity of Christ. There the Granville Sharp Rule of Greek Grammar equates Christ as being one and the same as God the Father. (The KJV makes it seem like there may be two different people coming.) Unknown to many is that this grammatical phenomenon occurs **twice** in this verse--once at the end proving the deity of Christ and once at the beginning. The blessed hope (pretribbers call the rapture) and the glorious appearing (appearing in glory or revelation--the 2nd coming on a pretrib scenario) are said to be one and the same event not two distinct events separated by a period of at least seven years.
Pretribulational objections to postribulationalism.
a.Dispensationalism and posttribulationalism
(1) Since the church now occupies the predicted time of Israel’s dispersion, Deut. 30:1-4 so the church could occupy the time of Israel’s final tribulation. God is now (in the church age) working with Israel and bringing her back to the land, so God could deal with two groups ant the same time.
(2) Although the church is unique, it is still united with believers of fall ages in several ways. (a) We share a city, Rev. 21:12-14. (b). We are founded on Old Testament prophets, Eph. 2:19-22. (c). All believers are sons of Abraham, Rom. 4:11. (d). Old Testament believers are not made perfect without us, Heb.11:40. (e). Both Old Testament and tribulation martyrs along with the church will reign with Christ for 1000 years.
b. Imminence
1. Imminence is not implied in commands to watch because many commands to watch apply to the second coming which is not imminent.
2. If the early church believed in imminence as defined by pretribulationists today, they were mistaken because they had to wait for a. Peter’s binding and death at an old age, John 21:18, b. They had to wait for the gospel to be carried to the remotest part of the earth, Matt 24:14. They had to wait for the promise that the kingdom of God wouldn’t appear immediately, Luke 19:11. If the early church could not believe in imminence, neither can we.
c. Predictability
The time of Christ’s second coming is not predictable to the day or hour because Matt. 24:36 says it isn’t. “But of that day and hour no one knows.…”Also, if you look at the time line of future events at the end of this web page, you will see that the second coming does not occur on the last day of Daniel’s 70th week. The two witnesses lie dead in the streets for at least three and on half days after the 1260 days of their ministry (the second half of Daniel’s 70th week) is over, Rev. 11:3-12.
d. Wrath
Must the church be absent during the outpouring of divine wrath in the tribulation? No. Divine wrath is specifically targeted at unbelievers in many cases in Revelation, Rev. 10:19, 14:8, 16:2, 6, 9, and 11. In addition, God promises that no believer (either before or after a pretrib rapture) would suffer divine wrath for John 3:36 say, “He who has the Son has eternal life, but” (in contrast to those who have the Son) “he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but eh wrath of God abides on him.” General tribulation is promised the church now but this is not God’s wrath. So the tribulational character of the 70th week does no militate against the presence of the church.
e. The church in the book of Revelation
1. The term “church does not appear in tribulational passages with an earthly setting, but it also does not appear din passages with describe heavenly scenes during the tribulation. This is just an argument from silence.
2. Inferences (like the 24 elders) can be found for both sides. For example, John a member of the church, was persecuted “because of the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus…” Rev. 1:9, and tribulation saints are persecuted for exactly the same reason, Rev.12:17.
3. The reason for having the church present on earth during the tribulation is the same as why God keeps the church on earth today-to be the objects and witnesses of God’s saving grace to a world in peril of impending judgment.
4.. Those who “die in Christ” are raised at the rapture, I Thes. 4:16.Tribulation saints are said to “die in the Lord” Rev. 14:13. We cannot be resurrected before our tribulation brothers and sisters because we both have been promised a common time for resurrection, after the tribulation.
5. Where do all the believers who come out of the great tribulation from, “every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues” Rev. 7:9-17, come from if, just a few years before, every believer had been raptured? Revelation records not a single conversion. In fact, when discussing the people’s response to the first six trumpets and the seven bowls John says “they did not repent” Rev. 9:20-21, 16:9, 11. This is not to say there will be absolutely no conversions during the tribulation. If no one at all repented then the reason for the delay in the Lords return in II Peter 3:9-10 would be accomplished and the Day of the Lord would begin. Even today, after 2000 years of evangelistic work, the church has still not reached people from every tribe and tongue. Yet pretribulationists believe that in seven years, starting with no believers at all (except possibly the 144,000 Jewish bond-servants, who are never said to be evangelists, or the two witnesses of Rev. 11) the greatest evangelistic outreach in the history of mankind will occur. This will happen in spite of what many pretribulationists believe, that those who heard the Gospel prior to the rapture will not repent during the tribulation “…because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. And for this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they might believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.” II Thes. 2:10-12. A more reasonable explanation for this innumerable multitude is that they are the martyrs of the church whom the antichrist has murdered during the tribulation.
f. The Olivet Discourse relates to the church as well as Israel.
1.The context- God’s rejection of Israel, Matt. 23:37.
2. The apostles to whom it is spoken are representatives of the church, Rev. 21:14
3. The partial fulfillment of some of the prophecies already has happened in the church age, Matt. 24:4-14.
4. The you mentioned in “you will be hated by all nations because of My name” in Matt. 24:9 is certainly not Israel because, as a nation, Israel has rejected Jesus’s name, but it is the church.
I pray these explanations answer some of the objections raised against the posttribulational rapture point of view. I also would refer you the book, “The church and the Tribulation”, by Dr. Robert Gundry from which many of these explanations came.
Timeline for future events
A. 70th Week Begins
B. Seal 144,000
C. Trumpets Begin
D. Great Trib Begins
E. Great Trib Ends
F. Just Before Second Coming
G. Second Coming
H. Millennium Begins
I. Seven years into Millennium
J. Millennium Ends
K. Eternal State Begins
A. DANIEL'S 70TH WEEK BEGINS
1. Antichrist makes a covenant with "the many" for 7 years #Dan 9.27 2. Restrainer steps aside #2Thes 2.6-7 3. Begin seven seals
B. SEALING 144,000
144,000 sealed before trumpets begin (compare these two passages) #Rev 7.3, 8.6-11
C. TRUMPETS BEGIN TO SOUND
This event is placed before the Great Trib. because it is mentioned in Revelation after the discussion about the seals (which begin at the start of Daniel's 70th week and extend to the posttribulational second coming at the 7th seal) but before the second half of Daniel's 70th week, the Great Tribulation is mentioned in Rev 11. #Rev 8.6-12
D. BEGIN THE GREAT TRIBULATION
1. Middle of Daniel's 70th week. #Dan 9.27 2. Antichrist puts a stop to sacrifices and grain offerings. #Dan 9.27 3. Antichrist given authority to overcome saints; they can't buy or sell without the mark of the beast. #Rev 13.5-10, 16-17 4. Abomination of Desolation set up #Dan 9.27, Matt 24.15, 2Thes 2.4 5. Two witnesses given authority for 1260 days (possibly Moses and Elijah). #Mal 4.5, Matt 17.11, Rev 11:3 (John the Baptist was not this Elijah because when Jesus made His statement in Matt 17:11, John had already been killed.) 6. Nations start to trample on the holy city (Jerusalem) for 42 months (when the Antichrist sets up the Abomination of Desolation). #Rev 11.3 7. Believers in Israel nourished in the wilderness 1260 days #Matt 24.15-23, Rev 12.6-14
E. LAST DAY OF DANIEL'S 70TH WEEK
1. Two witnesses killed but resurrected in 3 1/2 days #Rev 11.7-11 2. End of authority of the Antichrist. #Rev 13.5-10 3. Immediately after the tribulation: a. the sun is darkened (or black) b. the moon turns to blood c. stars fall from the sky (wonders in the sky) d. great earthquake occurs (every mountain and island is moved) #Joel 2.30-32, 3.9-21 #Matt 24.29-30, Mark 13.27, Rev 6.12-17 4. seal #Rev 6.12-17 5. The time of God's wrath has come #Isa 2.12-21, Rev 6.12-17 6. Bowls of wrath begin (placed here tenatively because: a. wrath is said to have arrived at the sixth seal which is after Daniel's 70th week. #Rev 6.16-17 b. Rev 11:18 implies that God's wrath had recently arrived in the days of the seventh trumpet. #Rev 11:18 c. The first bowl leaves the impression that the mark of the beast has been available long enough for people to accept or reject it. #Rev 16:2 d. The third bowl is an answer to the question raised in the fifth seal. (Note the parallel concepts in the 5th seal and the 3rd bowl: (1) martyrs, (2) the alter, (3) judgment, (4) blood, (5) God as the Lord, (6) holy and (7) true, and (8) the wicked as deserving of vengence.) #Rev 6.9-10, 16.4-7 7. Last chance to repent is coming up #2Pet 3.9-10, Rev 16.8-11
F. JUST BEFORE THE RAPTURE/SECOND COMING
1. sixth trumpet (men did not repent, no more delay, 1/3 of mankind killed, 200 million horsemen) #Rev 9.13-21, 10.6 2. sixth bowl of wrath, prepare for Armageddon #Rev 16.12-14, 19.19 3. John eats bittersweet book, just before the seventh trumpet. Compare the sweet effect of the rapture/second coming on Christians (giving relief to you who are afflicted) with the bitter consequences of the second coming on unbelievers (dealing out retribution to those who do not know God etc). Placed here because it follows the announcement that the 7th trumpet is about to sound. #2Thes 1.7-10, Rev 10.7-10
G. THE RAPTURE/SECOND COMING
1. Begin the day of the Lord (which extends through to the eternal state) #Isa 2.12-21, 13.9-16, Joel 2.30-32, 3.9-21 #Zeph 1.14-18, 2Pet 3.10-12 2. Second coming (including rapture): believers meet Christ in the air and join His triumphant and victorious descent to earth, first reaping of #1Thes 4.17, Rev 14.14-16 includes: a. Christ coming b. in the clouds c. gathering elect from heaven and earth d. angelic participation e. a trumpet sound #Zeph 1.16, Matt 24.30-31, Mark 13.26-27, Acts 1.9-11, 1Cor 15.52, 1Thes 4.16-17, 2Thes 2:1, Rev 11.15-18, 14.14-16 3. Dead believers of all time resurrected (first resurrection) #Dan 12.1-2, Rev 20.54. Death is swallowed up in victory #Isa 25.8, 1Cor 15.54 5. The mystery of God is finished #Rev 10.7 6. The saints are rewarded #Rev 11.18 7. Christ begins to reign on earth #Ps 2.1-8, Rev 11.18 8. The Lamb stands on Mount Zion (in Jerusalem) with the 144,000 #Ps 2.6, Rev 14.1 9. Christ comes like a thief #Matt 24.43-44, 1Thes 5.2-4, 2Pet 3.10, Rev 16.15 10. The second reaping of Rev. 14 #Rev 14.17-20 11. seventh seal #Rev 8.1-5 12. seventh trumpet #1Cor 15.52,Rev 10.7, 11:15-19 13. seventh bowl #Rev 16.17-21 14., thunder, an earthquake, a great hailstorm #Rev 8.1-5, 11.19, 16.18-21 15. Armageddon #Joel 2.10-14, Zeph 3.8, 2Thes 2.8,11, 2Pet 3.10, Rev 16.16-21, 17.11-21, 19.11-21 16. Babylon is fallen #Rev 14.8, 18.2 17. End of the Abomination of Desolation #Dan 9.27, 12.11, Zeph 1.8-9 18. All Israel turns to God #Joel 2.32, Zech 3.8-9, 12.3 #Zech 12.9-14 #Zech 13.1-9, Mal 3.1-6, Rom 11.26-27 (144,000 may be the first fruits of this harvest of Jewish souls) #Rev 14.4 19. Marriage supper of the Lamb #Luke 22.18, Rev 19.7, 21.9-14 20. Day of Atonement #Zech 12.10-11
H. BEGIN MILLENNIUM
1. Begin millennium (apparently 1335 days after the middle of Daniel's 70th week)
#Dan 12.12
2. Satan bound for 1000 years
#Rev 20.1-3
3. Antichrist and False Prophet cast into the lake of fire
#Rev 20.11-15
I. SEVEN YEARS INTO MILLENNIUM
Seven years into the millennium weapons of Ezekiel finish burning
#Ezek 39.9
J. END OF MILLENNIUM
1. Satan released 2. Battle with Gog and Magog 3. Devil thrown into the lake of fire 4. Great White Throne judgment 5. Judgment of unrighteous dead #Rev 20.7-15 6. Judgment of the nations. (Placed here because the evil men are thrown into the eternal fire. #Matt 25.31-46, Rev 20.7-14
K. ETERNAL STATE BEGINS
New heaven, new earth. #Rev 21
I have a few questions for the prewrath rapture position from a post tribulational rapture position.
1. Although the prewrath position answers many questions that the pretrib view does not, it still suffers the burden of explaining a few dubious duplications that the posttrib rapture unifies as one event. I believe the chart below correctly portrays the pre wrath position as compared to the posttrib position.
Unnecessary duplication of events:
a. The Prewrath position should have three times believers are resurrected. The first resurrection occurs after the 6th seal at the prewrath rapture, then there should be one at the last (7th) trumpet according to 1Cor. 15.52, Rev 11.15, and then a resurrection after the 70th week of Daniel is over, Dan. 12:1-2, Rev. 20:4-5 and this final resurrection is called the “first resurrection”!?
Since the posttrib position sees the seals, trumpets and bowls as overlapping (not parallel) and all ending together at the 7th seal, trumpet and bowl, all these resurrections happen after the end of the 70th week of Daniel-just one resurrection.
b. The Prewrath position has two times Christ’s advent is illustrated as being like the coming of a thief. At the prewrath (somewhere after the middle of the tribulation rapture, 1Thes 5.2, and again in Rev 16.15 where it is clear that Christ has not come yet like a thief at the time of the 6th bowl of wrath. They will say that this is a parenthesis in the 6th bowl (as pretribs do), and that the time period spoken of refers back to the prewrath rapture, but there is no evidence for this in the context of the 6th bowl. It just doesn’t fit their narrative (as with the pretrib position).
2. Regarding the second half of Daniel’s 70th week:
a. Are the number of days the antichrist is given authority to act cut short? Van Kampen in THE SIGN page 337 says the antichrist is “rendered useless” at the beginning of the Day of the Lord. But the Lord had given him 42 months to act, Rev 13.5.
b. Won’t the two witnesses will prophesy for “1260 days”, Rev 11.3 Is this just an idle promise, (made in approximately 95 A. D., ruffly 65 years after the statement from Jesus that the days will be cut short)?
c. Hasn’t the outer court been given to the nations to tread under foot for 42 months, Rev 11.2? Is this 42 month period cut short, Matt. 24:22?
d. It is not reasonable that two individuals, diametrically opposed to each other, both exercise authority at the same time. The antichrist would be exercising his authority freely during the day of the Lord. The last part of Daniel’s 70th week (which prewrathers see as the day of the Lord) appears to be a continuation of the day of the antichrist which started in the middle of the 70th week since he is exercising his God given authority to overcome saints, etc. If it is the day of the Lord, God would be exercising His authority, not refraining from exercising His authority and permitting the antichrist to exercise his.
If prewrath claimed that the above 3 1/2 years occurred during the first half of Daniel’s 70th week, they would avoid these problems. But claiming that these periods of time occur in the second half of Daniel’s 70th week causes the prewrath position a problem explaining the fact that God promises the antichrist authority for 42 months and then decides that, “for the sake of the elect those days must be shortened” and reduces the number of days granted for certain things to occur. Prewrath teaches that God severely restricts or “renders useless” (THE SIGN page 337) the antichrist thus revoking the authority He had just granted.
Another explanation is needed for “cut short”, Matt 24.22.
Checking the Greek:
2856 koloboo {kol-ob-o’-o}
from a derivative of the base of 2849; TDNT – 3:823,452; v
AV – shorten 4; 4
1) to mutilate
2) in NT: to shorten, abridge, curtail
The first definition is to mutilate (ie to cut off). So if those days had been allowed to go on indefinitely no flesh would survive but they will be cut off, not permitted to go on indefinitely. But they will go on as long as God had said they would.
3. Why at the 6th bowl of wrath does God say, “I am coming like a thief”?
Rev 16.15 According to the prewrath view He already had come like a thief to start the day of the Lord and to rescue all believers from His wrath? (I don’t believe Rev. 16:15 is a parenthesis in the middle of the events of the 6th bowl that jumps back to the church before the 7th seal rapture. I do believe the rapture is at the 7th seal but that the 7th seal is after the 6th bowl.) For evidence that 7 is the Biblical number of completion see Gen 1. For evidence that the 7th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th bowl all are simultaneous note the flashes of lightening, and sounds and peals of thunder, and the great earthquake that follows each of the seven seals, trumpets and bowls; 7th seal Rev 8.1-5 7th trumpet; 1Cor 15.52 Rev 10.7, 11.15-19 7th bowl Rev 16.17-18 These repeated series of events remind me of the sun being darkened, the moon being darkened or turned to blood, the stars falling from the sky, and the powers of heaven being shaken in the 6th seal after the tribulation. The repetition of both of these series of events indicates that the same point in time has been reached.
4. If NO ONE is saved after the prewrath rapture, why does the 6th bowl imply that there are those on earth who are blessed, staying awake and keeping their garments, Rev 16.15? And why do the bowls specifically target the wicked; Rev 16.2 “those who had the mark of the beast”, Rev 16.6“those who poured out the blood of saints”, Rev. 16.9 “they blasphemed God” thus implying that those who do not have the mark of the beast or those who did not pour out the blood of saints will not be affected?
On the other hand, If SOME ARE saved after the prewrath rapture, will they suffer the wrath of God or be protected from it? If they suffer it, prewrath must explain why John 3.36 doesn’t apply to them? If they don’t suffer it but are protected by God on earth as He protected Noah and Lot, then the need for a prewrath rapture has vanished because God is protecting His own on earth through the time of the outpouring of His wrath anyway. He might as well protect the entire church. Those saved after a prewrath rapture of believers still have the same promises of deliverance from the wrath of God that the church does. Or does the prewrath position believe as pretribs, that those saved after the rapture are not part of the church but part of Israel, or some hybrid group?
5. The 5th seal Rev 6.10-11 tells us that God will REFRAIN from JUDGING and avenging the blood of saints until the LAST martyr is killed. This may be the killing of the two witnesses at the end of the antichrist’s authority to kill saints, but could be any other martyr. In either case, this verse implies that God’s judging, the essence of the day of the Lord, 2Pet 3.7-10 will be WITHHELD until the end of both: 1. the authority of the antichrist to act and kill saints, and 2. the time the two witnesses have to witness is over. Thus God’s judgment will not come until after the 70th week of Daniel is over, and the antichrist’s authority is over, and the time given to the two witnesses to witness has been used up.
6. From Heb. 11.40 we learn that OT saints could not be made perfect without us. The posttrib rapture position indicates that both OT saints and we the church are made perfect at the same time-at the posttrib rapture. The prewrath position has OT saints WAITING to be resurrected until the first day of the Millennium (THE SIGN, pg. 297). If they could not be made perfect without us, how can we be made perfect without them? It seems consistent with the revealed character of God that we should not be made perfect without them if they cannot be made perfect without us.
7. Rom 8.18-23 describes creation anxiously longing for the revealing of the sons of God (the rapture). Why? Because (v 21) creation will be set free from its slavery to corruption when the sons of God are revealed. But according to prewrath, after the revealing of the sons of God, creation is not relieved, but instead, hail, fire and blood are thrown to earth, a third of the earth is burnt up, a third of the trees are burnt and all the green grass is burnt up, all in the 1st trumpet, it does not get any better for creation as we get into the 2nd trumpet or the rest of the bowls. I think you get the point. Creation would not be eagerly awaiting the revelation of the sons of God if, just after that revelation, creation is subject to the seven trumpets and seven bowls. It would eagerly await the return of Christ. But according to posttrib, it would eagerly wait for the revelation of the sons of God because that is when Christ returns to set up His kingdom. Prewrath (as well as pretribs) would have to explain why creation is said to be relieved at a time when creation will experience the worst plagues ever. Posttrib offers a better explanation; that at the revelation of the sons of God, the earth will also be relieved from the plagues of Revelation and God will “destroy those who destroy the earth.” Rev 11.18
8. According to Isa. 2.11, 17 “the Lord alone will be exalted in that day” (from the context- the day of the Lord). Rev. 13:4-8 tells us that the antichrist will be worshiped by “all who dwell on the earth” for 42 month (the second half of the tribulation) which prewrathers have at least in part as the day of the Lord. So the prewrath position has the antichrist being worshiped during a time frame that the Lord ALONE will be exalted. God won’t share any part of His day with the antichrist, so the day of the Lord cannot start until the 70th week of Daniel is over.
9. If the Day of the Lord starts just after the 6th seal and the seals, trumpets and bowls are consecutive, then why are there opportunities given to repent as late as the 5th bowl, since the Day of the Lord is being delayed until all who will repent do repent? 2 Peter 3:9-10 “The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.” This tells me that the Day of the Lord is being held back until all who will repent have repented. But legitimate opportunities for repentance are available but rejected even as late as the 4th bowl, Rev. 16:8, and 5th bowl, Rev. 16:11. So the day of the Lord will not begin until after at least the 5th bowl (which is consistent with the promise in the 6th bowl, Rev. 16:15 that He is coming like a thief, also given in 2 Peter 3:10).
10. In Acts 1:11 The “two men” tell the disciples that, when Jesus returns He will come in “just the same way as you have seen Him go into heaven”. He arose from the earth and went straight up to heaven. He did not linger in the clouds for several years. So when He returns, He will descend from heaven directly to earth, not linger in the clouds for several years.
In addition Dr. Robert Young added the following argument:
In Acts the Word says that Jesus will remain in heaven until the final restoration of all things. The restoration of all things is obviously in the Millennium and not the Tribulation. Christ will return at the DOL after the Tribulation. This has been the belief of the early church and with clear and direct scripturaI I humbly contend that it should be ours.
Could Islam be the religion of the antichrist?
In Luke 7:18-23 the disciples of John reported to him about all these things that Jesus was doing. 19 Summoning two of his disciples, John sent them to the Lord, saying, “Are You the Expected One, or do we look for someone else?” 20 When the men came to Him, they said, “John the Baptist has sent us to You, to ask, ‘Are You the Expected One, or do we look for someone else?’” 21 At that very time He cured many people of diseases and afflictions and evil spirits; and He gave sight to many who were blind. 22 And He answered and said to them, “Go and report to John what you have seen and heard: the blind receive sight, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, the poor have the gospel preached to them. 23 Blessed is he who does not take offense at Me.”
Jesus gave the disciples six evidences to tell John that should convince him that Jesus was the One. If the evidence being reported matched what the Bible had predicted, John should rest assured that Jesus was the One.
Applying this principle to the question, “Could Islam be the religion of the antichrist?” I will refer you to three times as many Scripture passages which, while all may not apply only to Islam, when considered together, I believe they make Islam the most likely religion of the coming antichrist.
1. Rev. 20:4 The antichrist will use beheading as a primary means of enforcing his will. Obviously Islam is the only world religion that has historically and is currently doing this.
2. The spirit of antichrist is to deny that Jesus is the Son of God, I John 2:22-23, 4:3, 2 John 1:7
3. The spirit of the antichrist is to deny that God is the Father, I John 2:22-23, 4:3, 2 John 1:7
4. The spirit of the antichrist is to deny that God has come in the flesh. I John 4:3, 2 John 1:7 In Islam saying that God had a Son or that God is at all to be compared with man (that God is a father, or that God became a man in Christ) is the worst sin you could possibly commit (called shirk).
5. John 16:3 “But an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God.” As the Islamists kill people they cry “Allahu akbar” meaning “God is great”. Certainly they think they are doing service to God as they kill people.
6. Dan. 2:40-43, 7:23 the fourth kingdom is said to be “as strong as iron, which breaks and smashes everything, so it will crush and break all the others (the other 3 kingdoms), or “the fourth kingdom …shall be different from all the kingdoms, and it shall devour the whole earth, and trample it down, and break it to pieces”, Dan. 7:23. This description fits Islam better than Rome. (Rome did not crush, trample and destroy the previous empires completely. They actually were a constructive force building roads (“all roads lead to Rome” and creating peace “Pax Romana “). But the Islamic Caliphate did fully, absolutely, and completely conquered all the lands of the other empires. It also crushed the previous three empires culturally and religiously. The Ottoman empire changed the language or alphabet to Arabic, destroyed the culture of the previous 3 empires (recall them destroying the 3000 year old artifacts in the Mosul museum 2/28/15) and replaced the religion of the previous 3 empires, whereas Rome continued to permit Jews to worship freely as long as they did not revolt and Christianity prospered under Rome but has struggled for survival under Islam.
7. Dan. 2:32-33 The fourth kingdom is said to be mixed, part iron, part clay. This fits well because in Islam we see the mixture of Shia and Sunni being an uncomfortable and unstable mixture.
8. Dan 2:41 the three times “mixed” in the Aramaic text is actually the word “Arab”. Of course Islam came out of the Arab population.
9. Those who fall will “fall by the sword, by flame, by captivity and by plunder,” Dan. 11:33. This is just what we see in the news: Cutting peoples’ throats with swords, burning the Jordanian pilot and 45 others burned alive “ISIS burned 45 people to death in seized Iraqi town of al-Baghdadi,” women and children being taken captive and their goods being plundered.
10. The antichrist (little horn) will not honor the God of his fathers (the God of Abraham, Ishmael, Esau-the true God.) Dan. 11:37-38.
11. He will have no regard for the desire of women, Dan. 11:37. What religion so disregards the desires of women: It takes four female witnesses to equal one male witness, they have multiple wives, their women get no education, they cannot leave the house without a male relative escort, cannot go shopping without a male, can’t even show their faces or look at people in the eyes, they teach their children to want to become suicide bombers for Allah, etc. (Some say the desire of women is to bear the Messiah. Since they deny the incarnation that interpretation would also fit.)
12. He will not honor any (other) god”, Dan. 11:37. (other than the god of force, see Dan. 11:38). This is just what Islam’s Shahada states: There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his prophet.
13. He will honor a god of force, Dan. 11:38. Throughout Islam’s history they have forced their beliefs on others. Talk about cramming your religion down someone’s throat? Either you believe or they slit your throat. That has been the history of Islam-to force people to believe, and then if you change your mind they kill you.
14. Dan. 11:38-39 also shows that it is a religion. He does honor one god, and requires others to worship it him. (See also Rev. 13:8, 15.)
15. Dan. 11:38-39, He honors a god of force. He will be monotheistic. (There are only three monotheistic religions in the world today, Christianity, Judaism and Islam.)
16. He will take action against the strongest of fortresses, Dan. 11:24, 39. Remember 9/11 and other attacks against our country and other major world military powers: Britain, France, and Germany.
17. He will seek to make changes in times, Dan. 7:25. When Islam is in control of a country they change from our calendar based on Christ to a calendar based on Mohammed.
18. He will seek to make changes in laws, Dan. 7:25. They change from our laws based on the Bible to Sharia law.
19. Rev. 17:10-11 describes 7 mountains or 7 kings representing 7 kingdoms (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome (“one now is”), and the Ottoman Empire). The seventh kingdom is seemingly destroyed and then returns. The Ottoman (Islamic) empire started in about 1299 A. D. and existed until 1924. Both ISIS and Iran are trying to revive this Islamic empire or Caliphate.
20. Daniel 9:26 “The people of the Prince who is to come will destroy the city and sanctuary” Josephus records that the Romans hired provincials to fight for them and the Arab provincials actually did more destruction to Jerusalem in 70 A.D. than the Romans wanted done. So the people of the prince who is to come are Arabs, not Romans. (Flavious Josephus, The Complete works of Josephus, The Wars of the Jews bk3 chpt1, par. 3) also Taticus, the History, Eew Ed.ed., bk5.1 ed. Moses hadas; trans. Alfred Church and William Broadribb (New York [dd1] : Modern Library, 2003)
21. All of the countries specifically marked for judgment in the Day of the Lord, are currently Muslims countries. Numb. 24:14, 17-20, Isa. 25:8-11, Obed. 1:8,-10, 15, 17-20, Ez. 25:12-17, 30:1-5, Zeph. 2:3-5, 12-13, The return of Israeli captives is a clue that this is at the end of the tribulation. Luke 21:20-24, Ez. 38:25, Joel 2:32-3:1-4, Zeph. 2:8-9, 12-13, Is.34:5-9, 63:1-4 comp. with Rev. 19.
Some objections to the Islamic antichrist idea.
1. Over the centuries, many have postulated other people as the antichrist such as Nero, Hitler, Obama, etc, and this “crying wolf” so often has turned others off to the idea of even discussing the identity or religion of the antichrist. But I don’t think any previously proposed candidate comes close to fulfilling the Scriptural descriptions above as does an Islamic individual.
2. If the antichrist does not come out of Islam, but comes from some new 10 nation revived Roman empire, then the (presently Islamic) nations that are said to come against Israel during the tribulation (# 21 above) must end up renouncing Islam (which they have followed for 1300 years) and joining some new and as yet undisclosed religion that fits the prophecies mentioned above. This seems highly unlikely in light of recent events which have seen the Islamic faith being revived, not destroyed.
3. Why study this at all? Because God wants us to be among those who have insight, Dan 11:33-34 “Those who have insight among the people will give understanding to the many…. Dan 12:10 “Many will be purged, purified and refined… those who have insight will understand.” Or like the sons of Isaachar, in 1 Chronicles 12:32 “Of the sons of Issachar, men who understood the times, with knowledge of what Israel should do… .“
4. What difference does it make. We cannot change it for it is God’s plan? Ezekiel 33:6 “But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet and the people are not warned, and a sword comes and takes a person from them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require from the watchman’s hand.” Prov. 27:12 “A prudent man foresees evil and hides himself.”
5. How could 2000 years of Christian teaching on this idea (that the antichrist comes out of Rome) be wrong? Possibly because the concept was concealed by God until the “end of time”. Dan 12:4, But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.” Dan 12:9-10 He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until time.”
Dan Dudley, 269-325-1371. See the books by Joel Richardson, “The Islamic Antichrist” and “The Mideast Beast”.